Spot your mate! How men can support one another against toxic body ideals

00:00:05 Yvie Jones
This podcast is recorded and produced on the land of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who may be listening. The producers of Let’s Talk would like to also acknowledge our listeners with lived experience of an eating disorder or body image issue.

00:00:28 Yvie Jones
You are at the heart of all we do, and this podcast and the work we do daily at the Butterfly Foundation is for you. Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk, a podcast from Butterfly Foundation. I’m your host, Yvie Jones Jones, and today, we are bringing you three unique perspectives that shine a light on how men can better support each other against toxic body ideals and the pressures men encounter.

00:00:57 Yvie Jones
In this space. We’ll hear from Konan Masuda Masuda, a young man with lived experience who speaks candidly about the struggles men face with body image and the pressures to meet societal ideals. We’ll also hear from former AFL player Brock McLean, who takes us into the high-stakes world of elite sports, sharing his battle with bulimia and the toll it took on his mental health.

00:01:22 Yvie Jones
And finally, we’re joined by Nick Bloom, a mental health first aid trainer and advocate who offers actionable insights about how we can approach and support men who we believe may be struggling with diet and exercise. When we talk about body image issues, we often think of young women. But the truth is young men are under similar pressures, ones that often go unnoticed.

00:01:49 Yvie Jones
Unrealistic body ideals, social media influences and peer dynamics shape how young men perceive themselves. First up, we’re joined by 18 year old Konan Masuda Masuda who begins by sharing his own personal experience around body image issues.

00:02:07 Konan Masuda
About two years ago I was really big into fitness and getting stronger and looking a certain way and that was when kind of I had issues prioritising different things. So I would prioritise fitness over a lot of things that affected my health negatively in the long term. Like things doing things. Like I have a good example where I flew to Japan and the day I flew I, I got outside at the airport, I got, I got to my, my accommodation and then I, it was 11 o’clock at night and I was like, I still haven’t done my workout today, so I’m going to get out there and do my workout and then go back to sleep.

00:02:54 Konan Masuda
But really thinking back to it like that’s not really taking care of your body, that’s not taking care of your, you know, mental health either. And another example I have is like, there will be times where school gets really busy and Extracurricular curriculums get really busy. Like, I would have school and then volleyball in the afternoon, and then I’ll get home at like 7:30 and I’m already tired from volleyball.

00:03:24 Konan Masuda
But I would still be like, I, I have to stay consistent and like, I have to stick to the schedule because then I’m gonna fall off the rails. So I have to just keep doing it. And I wasn’t like, listening to my body. I know I was already tired, I was mentally fatigued, but I was like, you know, I’m after, I have to get the workout in.

00:03:45 Konan Masuda
And so I still did my workout. Felt pretty crap afterwards. But yeah, it was sort of this cycle of pushing myself to the limit when I, when I really didn’t need to. You know, I try, I tried a lot of different types of diets and I had, at one point, you know, I was restricting how much I could eat of a certain food.

00:04:12 Konan Masuda
And before I would go to the beach with my friends or before, like a beach day, like, I would just not eat in the morning or like maybe even the night before because I would, I would be, I’ll feel insecure about how I look at the beach around my friends and other people at school.

00:04:33 Konan Masuda
So that was kind of the habits that I regret. And those are the habits that I want all my friends to consider, whether they’re doing it and whether they think it’s healthy.

00:04:50 Yvie Jones
It’s no secret that social media has a powerful influence on how we see ourselves, and young men are no exception. However, the pressure to look a certain way doesn’t just come from online platforms. It also comes from friends and classmates. To understand what this looks like for Konan Masuda and the young men in his life, we asked him about the kinds of body ideals he and his peers are exposed to and how these images shape their aspirations and insecurities.

00:05:22 Konan Masuda
There’s two, two main parts to, to two body types and that guy strive for. And it’s one’s basically just to look thinner, thin as possible, and then the other is to look as muscular as possible. So it’s like a balance between those two that I kind of talked about. Like, if you’re going to the gym and you’re working out a lot, but people think that you look too to you look like you have too much weight on you.

00:05:55 Konan Masuda
Sometimes hear people say, oh, you took the bulk too far, which means like, your bulking is, you know, where you eat lots, lots of food and also trying to gain lots of muscle at the same time. But some people will say you took the bulk too far because you’ve, you’ve sort of lost your goal of looking big because now you just put on too much weight and you can’t see much of the muscle.

00:06:22 Yvie Jones
Sometimes it’s not the big things, but the small offhand comments that stick with us. These remarks can shape how we see ourselves and the decisions we make about our bodies. We asked Konan Masuda about the kinds of comments young men face and how these shape their perceptions of body image. So something like you’ve taken the bulk too far, especially smallest.

00:06:45 Yvie Jones
That is, that would be a really heavy statement that would ruminate.

00:06:52 Konan Masuda
Yeah. For my friends who, you know, work, were told that they took the bulk too far. They would, they would switch to like, cutting, which is, you know, where you still trying to gain muscle, but you’re, you’re trying to cut down on the calories. And it’s, yeah, it does, it does affect their decision on how, how they’re going to go about their diet, trying to fit into to other people’s ideal, like what they see as the ideal body type.

00:07:19 Konan Masuda
Yeah.

00:07:20 Yvie Jones
And have you noticed a lot of young men, you know, changing their eating habits or exercise routines to try to achieve that?

00:07:28 Konan Masuda
I would definitely say that if you’re a friend group, like, if one person, two people or more starts going to the gym, like, it’s very likely that everyone in that friend group just starts going to the gym together. It becomes sort of a social event for them.

00:07:45 Yvie Jones
Right.

00:07:46 Konan Masuda
And if your friend group is, is, you know, following a certain diet, or if your friend group is working out X numbers X times a week, it’s like, it’s likely that, yeah, the other friends are also going to be doing something similar because they want to fit in and they want to do similar things and look a similar way.

00:08:10 Yvie Jones
Body image struggles can be deeply personal, but they’re often compounded by how others treat us. For young men, teasing or judgment from peers can turn into real insecurities. We asked Konan Masuda about the challenges he’s seen amongst his friends and classmates who might not meet these societal ideals.

00:08:32 Konan Masuda
I mean, I had a friend in itwan who was, like, really skinny and he was having trouble gaining muscle, and that was sort of a bit of an insecurity for him. And yeah, we had this class called Full on Fitness where we basically just work out for an hour and a half, and it was, you know, it gathered everyone who was interested in working out.

00:09:00 Konan Masuda
So it was kind of like a culture of that classroom. But yeah, he would be, it would be pretty adamant on, like, fitting in and trying to trying to gain weight, but it was, yeah, it was just, it was very hard for him to do it. And yeah, a lot of the, the guys that didn’t struggle so much and they already had the ideal body type that are usually desired amongst men.

00:09:32 Konan Masuda
They were, you know, sort of putting him down and saying things like, oh, like, you look like a stick or like, or you know, like you just, you just have to eat more or something like, something like that. Even though, you know, he very well knows that if he wanted to gain weight, that’s what he needed to do.

00:09:52 Konan Masuda
But it’s. Yeah, it’s like the advice that’s not helpful at all. It’s just, it’s just there to put him down and. Yeah, that’s, that’s the sort of thing, sort of thing I heard during those classes.

00:10:05 Yvie Jones
How does it feel for you when you see your friends around you struggling?

00:10:10 Konan Masuda
Yeah, I really feel, I really feel like they should. They really needs to be a more supportive culture because, you know, putting them down is, is not helping with their health, is not helping them. It’s not even helping them get their ideal body type. In some cases, at least for, for this case, my friend was.

00:10:32 Konan Masuda
It’s really trying to support them without insulting them. And it’s, it’s really the jokes that you make that add up as well. These jokes might not seem harmless or, you know, playful even to, to people who are saying it, but you know, talking to, talking to that friend, like, I know that those.

00:10:55 Konan Masuda
Getting those jokes constantly, you know, every time you go to class is just like a really negative thing. And sometimes he doesn’t even want to come to that class because, like, he knows he’s going to be shamed for, for how he looks. So.

00:11:09 Yvie Jones
Yeah, it’s just. Yeah, it’s awful and it’s awful to watch and see. And you, you must feel, you know, at times helpless.

00:11:17 Konan Masuda
Yeah. I do think that, like, young men especially have trouble like, talking about it and if they don’t talk about it, it’s, it’s all in their head.

00:11:25 Yvie Jones
Yeah.

00:11:26 Konan Masuda
So they don’t know what’s wrong with it. They don’t know what’s right with it either. And which I, which I also think why is why it’s, it’s good to bring up like, research as a starter because it’s not like young men struggle to just like, have, have a small conversation with your friend and then like going to something personal like that’s something that, that’s, you know, that’s not very frequent or that’s not Very common amongst men.

00:11:55 Konan Masuda
So going into that conversation using a research I think would be a, you know, a good catalyst for the conversation.

00:12:09 Yvie Jones
Talking about personal struggles can be challenging, especially for those not used to opening up. I was curious to hear Konan Masuda’s thoughts on how he thinks young men might be able to approach conversations about body image to help bring this often overlooked topic into the open.

00:12:28 Konan Masuda
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of ways you can go about, but one of the ways I like is maybe citing like a scientific report or of research and then bringing that into the conversation and starting the conversation with like a newly discovered scientific research per se. Maybe something about diet or maybe something about looking a certain way or, or even bringing in studies that are focused mainly on health.

00:13:05 Konan Masuda
For example, like studies maybe linking lack of sleep with obsessiveness of the trends between, I don’t know, how many times you go to the gym and how much sleep you get and how that affects their health and whether they have signs of eating disorder or body dysmorphia and the links in between and bringing that up as a conversation and saying, hey, like, there is a link between here and this new research, like, what do you think about it?

00:13:36 Konan Masuda
And I think that’s a good way of maybe starting a conversation and further exploring like whether they have these issues and whether they need help or whether they should seek professional help.

00:13:53 Yvie Jones
Stepping away from the pressure to achieve an ideal body isn’t easy, especially when it’s tied to your identity. As you’ll hear for Konan Masuda, changing his environment and perspective helped him make healthier choices. We asked him how he managed to move away from these expectations and shift his focus.

00:14:16 Konan Masuda
I think there are two main factors to it. One, one factor is definitely following following people online that had like, contrary views to what I thought was healthy and what I thought was, was necessary to be, to, to be stronger and to look a certain way. And you know, I followed lots of different type of content creators back then, like mainly like calisthenics athletes and some bodybuilders as well.

00:14:52 Konan Masuda
But I switched to sort of like more health focused, like science based fitness influences as you could call it. And you know, they really sort of show to me that you can, you can gain muscle and you can be stronger and you can, you know, look a certain way and still help, still be healthy and still, you know, have good mental health and still have friends and social life.

00:15:27 Yvie Jones
As we wrapped up, we asked Konan Masuda to share any advice he might have for young men who might be struggling with body image or placing too much Emphasis on fit.

00:15:40 Konan Masuda
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s really quite difficult because, you know, when I was in that stage, I was. Even if people gave advice to me, it would be hard for me to, to taking. Taking the facts objectively. So I would say have other hobbies or interests that you like doing, because as soon as you make fitness like the strongest priority and at the forefront of your mind, and as soon as it’s really tied to your identity, I feel like it’s hard for you to look at things objectively.

00:16:21 Konan Masuda
I know for me, I had friends who were into fitness. I had classes that was all about fitness. When I look at social media, I saw fitness. When I go back home, I eat on the, on the foundation of fitness. So a lot of my, my lifestyle was tied to fitness. So it was hard for me to sort of like, let go or let go some parts of it because it was like, so stuck to my identity and it was so stuck to what I thought was, was the right thing.

00:16:57 Konan Masuda
But if I, If I was more spread out with my interests, if I, you know, read. Read books or if I went swimming or if I, you know, had other interests that were, that was not related to fitness, then I feel like I could have, yeah, looked at it from a more objective point of view and took feedback from, you know, online and in person that was helpful for me and listen to that and really take into it.

00:17:31 Konan Masuda
So I think that’s the advice I would give. Have other hobbies and interests that you like doing.

00:17:49 Yvie Jones
Next, we are joined by Brock McLean, a former former AFL player who spent 11 years at the top of his game. Brock’s journey as an elite AFL player is one many might envy. But leaving the game revealed hidden struggles with mental health. We started by asking Brock about his transition from professional sports to life after football and how he began to confront his challenges, including an eating disorder.

00:18:18 Brock
Yeah, so my name’s. My name’s Brock McLean. Once upon a time, many, many years ago, I played AFL footy. I played for 11 years, six years at Melbourne, five years at Carlton, and then was retired at the ripe old age of 28. My transition into, I guess you could say the normal world was one that was a real struggle for me.

00:18:40 Brock
A lot of. I had a lot of underlying mental health issues that were sort of masked by football, and then everything sort of came undone, you know, when I left the game. And one of those mental health issues that I suffered from was bulimia nervosa. So, you know, my first, I guess, five or six years After I left the game was a real challenge for me.

00:19:06 Brock
You know, issues around self worth, depression. I ended up being diagnosed with bipolar. So it was, it was a real battle, I guess, to assimilate into the normal world. But, you know, after, after time and after seeing, you know, a therapist, a number of visits to psychiatric clinic, I, I found some happiness and stability and some normality in my life and you know, now found myself happily married with, with two beautiful daughters, you know, and those, those three ladies in my life have been the best thing that’s, you know, ever happened to me.

00:19:42 Brock
And you know, it wouldn’t have happened if I, you know, didn’t have those struggles that I did. So it’s been an absolute blessing in disguise.

00:19:54 Yvie Jones
Elite athletes are often seen as the epitome of physical health, but the reality behind the scenes can sometimes be a little more complicated. We asked Brock about, about the pressures he faced in afl, in particular regarding body image and performance expectations.

00:20:13 Brock
Yeah, look, I think there’s this, you know, perception that because, you know, you’re famous, you’re an elite athlete, you’re making lots of money, you’re in the limelight, you’re not susceptible to things like depression or anxiety or, you know, eating disorders. We know from a lot of the research that material things like, you know, money and cars and, you know, nice clothes, it has zero effect on your, on your well being and your happiness.

00:20:44 Brock
But you know, because of, you know, perceptions in society and you know, the way that, I guess advertising works as well and you know, what you see in movies and what you see on TV is that, you know, wealth and fame equates to happiness where it’s, it’s, it’s not, it doesn’t work like that.

00:21:01 Brock
So, you know, for a long time I used to, you know, brush off my, my issues just, you know, by using the term, you know, perspective. Oh, you know, there are, there are worse people off in the world. You’ve got, you’ve got nothing to be depressed about. You know, you should be happy.

00:21:16 Brock
So just, just forget about it and get on with it. But, you know, it’s not a competition. Like, if that was, if, if that’s how the world worked, then only the person in the world with truly the most, you know, awful experiences or the, you know, the most awful condition, they’d be the only ones that, you know, worthy of attention and empathy and getting themselves right.

00:21:38 Brock
So it took me a long time to figure that out, you know, that everyone’s got their own struggles. It’s not a competition. But everyone’s deserving of love and attention and seeking help and deserve, deserves to be happy and healthy.

00:21:54 Yvie Jones
Taking the first step to seek help can feel impossible, especially for men raised to think of vulnerability as a weakness. Next, Brock opens up about his therapy journey and what it took to overcome the stigma around mental health.

00:22:11 Brock
I grew up in a very old school family, was very blue collar, very working class and you know, sort of dad and his side of the family that didn’t really believe in mental health thought psychologists were a waste of time. So, you know, that was my attitude towards mental health and it was probably something that.

00:22:31 Brock
Why I didn’t, you know, speak about my issues for so long because I thought it was somehow a sign of weakness or it would somehow be emasculating to talk openly and honestly about, you know, my struggles. And it wasn’t until when I saw a psychologist, I think it was the first time in, in 2017 that I really started to open up, you know, and even then it took me a long time to actually be really open and honest with my psychologist.

00:22:55 Brock
It was very much a, a slow and long and winding process. But, you know, eventually we got there in the end and you know, it’s, it’s, it’s been a good, you know, sort of three or four years for me of being in a really good state of mind and, you know, just in a really good place.

00:23:17 Yvie Jones
Talking about mental health can feel daunting, but Brock describes it as one of the most powerful tools for healing. We asked him about the moment he first opened up about his struggles and how it changed his life.

00:23:33 Brock
I mean, you’ve built up this narrative in your head that, you know, somehow talking about your issues is going to be such a huge deal and you know, it’s going to be emasculating and you know, all of a sudden it’s going to be out in the open and people are going to think less of you and all of this type of stuff.

00:23:51 Brock
And then you actually go, and the first time you actually go and honestly speak about your issues and open up, you walk away like, oh my God, I was really worried about that all this time, like, how much better, you know, do I feel like it? I. Anytime I do some public, public speaking in this space and you know, talking to male dominated audience, I basically use the analogy.

00:24:12 Brock
It’s just like taking one big emotional dump, you know, going in and you walk away and you feel like you’ve lost five or ten kilos just off your shoulders and you just feel so much better about yourself because I Mean, it doesn’t actually, it doesn’t rid you of, you know, your illness, it doesn’t rid you of your eating disorder, but what it does, it just, you build connection with your therapist.

00:24:37 Brock
That feels good, that’s good for our well being and you’re able to just get so much off, off your chest as well. So you’re not working, walking around with this, I guess this burden on your shoulders, actually allowing people, you know, into your life so they can help you.

00:24:58 Yvie Jones
From perfect physiques to unachievable standards of masculinity. Society’s expectations can take a toll on men. We asked Brock what needs to change for men to resist those unrealistic ideals and prioritise their mental health?

00:25:16 Brock
Yeah, I mean, I think we just, we need to first just start talking about it, actually talking, openly talking, you know, sharing our lived experience, you know, understanding me, you know, because I think one thing that, you know, when you’re in the real depths of, you know, your own mental health battles, you can feel, it can just feel really isolating and you know, you feel like you’re the only person in the world going through these issues when it’s just not the case.

00:25:39 Brock
So actually, you know, people who are able to talk about their experience and open up about their journey, that can help normalize it and destigmatize it and almost give men permission to say, well, you know, I’m experiencing those things. He’s in a really good place right now. Maybe I can start talking about it and, and just trying to shed this, you know, unrealistic expectations, you know, that we have to be, you know, perfect or we have to have, you know, the best body to be popular or we have to be, you know, have to have our diet 100 of the right, 100 of the time, you know, when that’s just not, it’s not realistic.

00:26:13 Brock
We’re human beings, you know, after all, nobody’s perfect. And even if you do have, you know, you know, the best body or, you know, you have 4% body fat, that doesn’t equate to, you know, being a, you know, a decent person or a loving person or someone, you know, that’s more deserving, you know, of love, they’re just superficial things that, you know, you know, in this day and age society has seen to come in value and value more and more because of things like social media and, you know, expectations and influences and, and all that type of stuff.

00:26:48 Brock
You know, every person’s worthy of love and attention and empathy, regardless of whether you’re 4% body fat or 10% body fat, it doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. That says nothing about you as a person.

00:27:03 Yvie Jones
As we near to the end of our conversation, we asked Brock what advice he would give to men struggling with body image or eating disorders.

00:27:12 Brock
I think, you know, growing up, right, when you saw something in the media, in the news, in the movies, in magazines, like you always associated eating disorders with women, you know, because that’s what, that’s what we were shown. That’s what we saw. We never saw any males in, you know, in the arts with, with eating disorders.

00:27:29 Brock
So please, you know, if you are a male struggling, please don’t get caught up on the, you know, in believing that it’s a, it’s a women only issue. You know, it’s a human issue. Eating disorders doesn’t discriminate. Mental health doesn’t discriminate. It’s not a sign of weakness. It’s just we all struggle. Humans struggle from time to time, right?

00:27:48 Brock
But the beauty of it is we, we’ve all got the capacity to heal and to get better. And you’ll find, you know, I found that once I’ve, you know, I mean, I’m in the position now that you look back on those times that you’ve struggled and then you, you have this in the back of your mind, you’re like, well, I, I was able to survive that.

00:28:10 Brock
I was able to, to live through that and come out the other side stronger, happier, better, which gives you so much confidence that you can, you can achieve anything or get through anything, you know, moving forward. There’s real strength in learning to get through a struggle. So just hang in there, be kind to yourself and, you know, there will be better days.

00:28:30 Brock
Try and find someone to talk to. Like talk to someone about, you know, your issues. It can be a really dark and lonely place when you just isolate yourself and when you bottle everything up and all you’re doing is just kicking the can further down the road. So if you can somehow find the strength, and it is a huge sign of strength, you know, to, to admit you’re vulnerable and to admit that you’re struggling.

00:28:55 Brock
But as I said before, you’ll find straight away, as soon as you talk about your issues with someone that you know, you, you open yourself up to healing and to connection and you’ll just feel so much better.

00:29:13 Yvie Jones
Lastly, we are joined by Nick Bloom, a mental health first aid trainer. Nick’s journey into mental health advocacy is deeply personal, shaped by the struggles of loved ones and his own wake up call. During a tragic time. We began by asking Nick to share his story and how it inspired his work in mental health and body image.

00:29:34 Nick
Predominantly, I work in the mental health space. I guess what’s led me to here is a lived experience journey. So growing up, my mum, who’s a beautiful, amazing woman, she suffered from mental ill health. And yeah, as a kid I didn’t have a concept of what was happening. As a teenager I had little inklings of what was going on.

00:29:54 Nick
It’s only really as an adult that I could support her, not just as a child, but as a fellow adult also through my adulthood. I had a really close friend of mine that suffered with an eating disorder as a teenager and that issue grew and morphed and spread. So there was a comorbidity into mental ill health and unfortunately the, I guess the end result of that led to a pretty devastating suicide during 2020.

00:30:24 Nick
And it’s a devastating experience to go through and I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone, but for me personally it was also the biggest kick in the ass in the universe I could have got and it was a huge wake up call which led to big life changes and a big career change. So ever since that time I’ve been really grateful that I’ve got to work across the proactive health, preventative, mental ill health and also suicide prevention spaces.

00:30:51 Nick
I do this through my business as a mental health first aid trainer which I was lucky enough to run for the crew at Butterfly. I do a bit of public speaking, I do some consultancy work and really I work with all sorts of people and groups, so multinational corporations, disability support workers, tradies, I mean, name an industry, I’ve probably worked with them.

00:31:10 Nick
And I also get to advise Ausgov and some health focused and care led organizations. And lastly, I guess the piece that feels really relevant here is I’m fortunate to have worked with over 100 schools, schools and almost 10,000 teenagers who are predominantly male. Identifying.

00:31:30 Yvie Jones
Traditional stereotypes can influence how men perceive themselves, leading to societal expectations that can shape behaviour. We asked Nick to share a bit more about what he has seen in his work. When it comes to masculine body ideals and the impact this can have, I.

00:31:49 Nick
Mean, it feels like this taboo topic for so many boys and men and you know, particularly when I’ve worked in schools, one of the main challenge points for the boys has been trying to balance those old school stereotypes, stereotypes, sorry, with some of the more new age expectations on masculinity. So they tend to struggle with, well, how can I be strong and stoic and Independent on one hand, but also gentle, open and vulnerable on the other.

00:32:13 Nick
The girls tend to talk about society’s expectations on them being judged by others. Body image issues, a lot of stuff related to how they look. So the girls tend to talk about this stuff and the boys rarely do. Yet we know over a third of young people experiencing disordered eating behaviors are male.

00:32:33 Nick
So body image issues, perhaps they’re stereotypically seen as feminine or maybe non masculine to some. A lot of the boys want to appear to be masculine as it’s generally respected, and they want to be respected to get social credit, and they want the social credit to be liked, to be loved, to fit in.

00:32:49 Nick
And I felt that same pressure when I was growing up. So even Today, in my mid-30s, I feel connected to my feminine side. I’m hyper aware. Masculinity shows up in so many different forms. But I also still have this internal narrative that wants to be aesthetically tough so I can appear manly, so I can be valued.

00:33:08 Nick
I see it with my mates, I see it with the boys I work with, I see it with the blokes that I get to support as well. So for boys and men, these body image issues are oftentimes avoided and that can make it this silent killer. Three quarters of suicides in this country are by male identifying people.

00:33:25 Nick
And from working with so many boys and men, I believe the main reason behind this is because we men are told by society that maybe other than anger, which is seen as a bit masculine, we aren’t allowed to express other emotions or challenges we’re going through, but instead we must suppress them. And when we can’t express and are forced to suppress, things build up until they explode out.

00:33:50 Nick
And that’s where we see emotional outbursts, body image issues, violence, aggression, mental ill health, substance misuse, self harm and of course, suicide as well.

00:34:04 Yvie Jones
When faced with pressure to conform to certain body ideals, men may engage in harmful behaviours. Next, Nick shared some specific examples of those behaviours and their effects on physical and mental health.

00:34:19 Nick
Yeah, so just as women are told they must look a certain way, way, the expectation on men is we need to be strong, act tough and look big. Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with these things or with wanting these things, but it’s our reasons for wanting them and it’s the journey we take to get there, which can make it an unhealthy coping mechanism or I guess, addictive in its nature.

00:34:41 Nick
And this shows up all the time with the boys and men across my life and across my work and concerningly I feel like the boys are getting younger and younger as they copycat behaviors and attitudes from older boys and from men, through social media, through mainstream media and through the other avenues that they’re accessing.

00:34:59 Nick
So I’ve seen and heard about over exercising or muscle building obsession, diet fixation and binge eating, bullying others and or maybe bullying themselves through perfectionism, views and extreme body dissatisfaction. And really all of this leads to a variety of physical, emotional and mental health issues.

00:35:23 Yvie Jones
Mental health struggles don’t always manifest in obvious ways. Nick’s work as a mental health first aid trainer equips him to teach others how to spot the signs of someone who might be struggling. We asked him what men should look for in their friends and peers.

00:35:40 Nick
I guess firstly I should explain what mental health first aid is. So for those who aren’t aware, we offer anyone and everyone the opportunity just to understand a bit more about mental health. And we do this by sharing stories together, learning practical strategies, getting evidence based frameworks, and really the competence that we build from this gives us the confidence to approach people who might be struggling, to open up conversations with them and to then support them through their journey.

00:36:10 Nick
It’s effectively the mental health equivalent of physical first aid. Now, when it comes to body image issues specifically, we want to be on the lookout for a variety of signs and symptoms and we can kick it off behaviourally. So what we might want to be thinking about is, are our mates obsessively dieting and or excessively exercising?

00:36:29 Nick
Are they binge eating or maybe avoiding eating around us and others? Are they evading conversations about food or exercise? Are they withdrawing from their regular hobbies and activities? Are they withdrawing socially then physically, is their weight fluctuating? Are they extra sensitive to the cold? Are they swelling around their cheeks or jaw or knuckles?

00:36:52 Nick
Are they lightheaded or fainting? And then lastly, which is psychologically, when it comes to their body, are they constantly dissatisfied? Do they have a distorted image of themselves or perhaps a low self esteem? Do they appear to be a bit more tense around meal times? Are they more sensitive to comments or criticisms regarding food, exercise, body shape or weight?

00:37:16 Nick
Now some of these signs will be tangible and some won’t. So let’s say maybe you’ve noticed a mate and he’s avoided going out for meals with you. Perhaps he’s lost a bit of weight and you’re concerned. Maybe our concern is spot on. It’s possible this mate’s having issues with their partner at home.

00:37:31 Nick
They’re under sleeping, they’re overworking, they’re feeling burnt out. And this is the manifestation of those issues and that’s what’s led to this. But it’s also possible. They tell us, well, actually, I’m training for a marathon, I’m raising all this money for a mental health charity and I’m super keen to share about it with you.

00:37:49 Nick
So what I’d always encourage is we err on the side of caution and we take the conservative approach. If something feels a bit off or you notice some sort of change, bring it up with them. We want to be there for both conversations and all the conversations in between, good, bad or otherwise.

00:38:07 Yvie Jones
How can men support each other in developing healthier relationships with food and exercise?

00:38:13 Nick
So let’s say we’re concerned about a mate. We want to bring it up within. Maybe it’s going to start out with a bit of banter. We talk about work or the footy or what we got up to on the weekend, but at some point, the gear’s got to shift. Now it’s very hard for us to be what we can’t see in life.

00:38:29 Nick
So in my view, the best way to broach this topic isn’t to expect them to go first, but to actually initiate ourselves. It’s the main strategy I use when I’m trying to build trust or help people feel psychologically safe with me. And I find it very effective for the most part. So if we can talk about our challenges around eating, drinking, exercise, whatever it might be, we’re role modeling, authentic sharing, which is then creating space for other men to be able to do the same thing.

00:38:56 Nick
It’s like if you say to someone, hey, how’s it going? And they tend to just say, oh, yeah, good, or, I’m all right, even if there’s a lot more going on there. But if we can say, you know, work’s been a bit overwhelming for me lately, or I feel like I can’t control how much I’m binging on the weekends, or no matter how much I gym, I’m just not liking what’s looking back at me in the mirror.

00:39:15 Nick
I mean, from there, we’re a much better chance of allowing them to talk about whatever issues they’re going through, body image or otherwise. Now, it takes courage for us to bungee jump our vulnerability out there, but there’s this big elastic cord of safety that is tethered to us, as we’re just giving them permission to get a bit vulnerable with us in return.

00:39:38 Yvie Jones
Often men find it difficult to open up about their struggles, but recognizing the signs can open the Door to starting a conversation, which can be the first step in seeking help. We asked Nick to share what he might say to someone who feels trapped by societal pressures.

00:39:56 Nick
Yeah, I just want to say it’s okay to feel how you feel. It’s understandable if you feel this pressure and expectation. I mean, I feel it, almost all of us feel it. And we’re allowed to feel it at the same time, though, we don’t have to feel it. So when I get stuck in my head and maybe feel insecure about my body or how I look, I try to ponder on, well, who made these rules?

00:40:18 Nick
Who decided what normal is? Who decided what desirable is? I feel like society is attaching all this meaning to this made up construct. I’ve met people with all sorts of bodies. I’ve met people who desire people with all sorts of bodies. I’ve met people who fit the mold of aesthetic beauty, but they feel deeply insecure, unhappy, and almost cursed by it.

00:40:39 Nick
And I’ve met people who don’t meet the stereotype of aesthetic beauty. And they’re comfortable in their own skin, openly expressive, and they got plenty of pride. That famous quote comparisons the thief of joy. I mean, if we’re to compare ourselves to anyone, at least let it just be to ourselves. So can we take small steps to how we want to be and who we want to be and we find some ways to love and accept ourselves a bit more over time?

00:41:06 Nick
That’s what I’m aiming for and hoping for myself, but also everyone I get to work with, everyone I get to meet, and really just everyone on the planet.

00:41:14 Yvie Jones
That’s a good message, Nick. For many men, asking for help feels like a daunting step. To finish our chat, Nick shares a powerful perspective on why seeking support isn’t just necessary, but a gift to yourself and those who care about you.

00:41:31 Nick
Yeah, to anyone struggling with your body image, your mental health, or any other challenge, I want you to just picture the one person on earth that you love or trust the most. Imagine they came to you and asked you for your help. Would you help them? I’m pretty confident you would. So now I’d love for you to flip this in reverse.

00:41:52 Nick
And if you ask them for help, do you think they’d like to help you? Well, I’m pretty confident they would as well. So often we think we’re wasting people’s time or annoying them or putting this burden on them. And so we don’t ask, we don’t ask for the help that we need. What we’re actually doing is we’re gifting them our trust and they’re probably going to appreciate that now.

00:42:13 Nic
I also recognize there’ll be people out there that don’t have a person they trust that they can lean on. So please know there’s at least one person out there you don’t yet know who can help. There’s online resources, there’s helplines, there’s crisis lines, there’s countless professionals. These people are trained to do this stuff really well.

00:42:33 Nic
They’re all over the country, they’re all over the Internet, they’re all over the Butterfly website. So I’d encourage you to check it out. One small moment of your courage to open that link or pick up the phone or step into that professional setting. It could lead to a lifetime of support and positivity for you and also for the people around you.

00:42:53 Nic
And it’s also important to recognize that asking for help is really hard. So if you know someone who might be struggling, spark a conversation with them instead of waiting for them to come to you. If we could all do that with those around us, if we could all clean up our own backyard, we’d have a much healthier and happier society.

00:43:18 Yvie Jones
Thanks as always, to today’s guests Konan Masuda, Brock and Nic for sharing their stories with us. It’s our hope that through conversations like these we can begin to break down the stigma of body image issues surrounding men and bring about positive change. If you’re concerned about an eating disorder for yourself or someone you care about, please reach out to the Butterfly national helpline at 1-833-4673.

00:43:48 Yvie Jones
That’s 1-800-ed-Hope for a free confidential conversation with one of our specialist counsellors. Alternatively, you can chat online by visiting butterfly.org au and following the prompts at the top of the page. You can also download your own support script to take to your GP or other healthcare professional personalised with your needs and requirements for a better experience.

00:44:18 Yvie Jones
To find out more about today’s episode, check out the helpful links in the show notes and on the Butterfly website. Just head to butterfly.orgau forward/podcast and click through to this episode. Let’s Talk is produced for the Butterfly foundation by Yvie Jones Jones and Annette Staglieno from Classic Me Production Productions with the support of the Waratah Education Foundation.

00:44:43 Yvie Jones
Our Executive producer is Camilla Becket with support from Melissa Wilton and Kate Mulray.