Voices from multicultural communities

00:00:00 Yvie
This podcast is recorded and produced on the land of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who may be listening. The producers of Let’s Talk would like to also acknowledge our listeners with lived experience of an eating disorder or body image issue.

00:00:22 Yvie
You are at the heart of all we do, and this podcast and the work we do daily at the Butterfly foundation is for you. Hello and welcome to let’s Talk, a podcast from Butterfly Foundation. I’m your host, Eva Jones. And in this episode, we’re diving deep into a crucial topic, body image and eating disorders.

00:00:45 Yvie
In multicultural communities, eating disorders do not discriminate. They affect people of all ages, backgrounds and identities. Yet unique challenges arise for those in culturally or linguistically diverse communities. From cultural pressures to the stigma surrounding mental health, these issues are often magnified. Today, we’re joined by two courageous women from these communities who will share their personal experiences, as well as psychologist Anila Azar from Gleepoint Road Psychology, who’s passionate about culturally appropriate care.

00:01:24 Yvie
Together, we’ll explore how cultural, social, and family dynamics influence body image and disordered eating, and what can be done to offer better support. To kick off our conversation, I asked our first guest, Varsha, to tell us a bit about her personal story and how societal and cultural expectations may have played a role.

00:01:47 Varsha
Yeah, so I feel like my eating disorder started. It’s hard to say exactly what age, you know, that. There are little comments that I got probably since I was about 7, about if I was eating something and then someone in my family or somebody would say, oh, like, should you be eating that?

00:02:03 Varsha
And I think it always came from a good place of, oh, okay, like, let’s make sure you’re healthy and well. But I think all of that built up over time, especially when it was like, friends, parents, and commenting about my body and just those little things. And I feel like when I was about 12, my auntie was living for overseas, so we were all weighing her suitcase at home, and then somebody in my family was like, oh, let’s all step on the scale.

00:02:27 Varsha
So I stepped on the scale. That number meant nothing to me. I was just like, okay, cool. But then somebody else says, oh, don’t worry, we’ll fix that. And immediately I’m like, what do you mean fix? Like, what’s. What’s wrong? Like, I. I didn’t know that there was anything wrong with that. So I think from that point onwards, I was like, no, I Want to do this on my own, I can fix myself.

00:02:50 Varsha
And I think this idea of fixing has kind of carried throughout because after that it was definitely periods of time where I was more focused on my weight, but it still wasn’t all that bad. It was probably just a little bit in my head about what other people look like compared to me.

00:03:05 Varsha
But then by the time I was about 14, I was in year eight in high school. And by then it was a full fledged eating disorder. It was just about restriction and comparison and over exercising. And it felt like no one around me really understood because obviously some of my friends were also going through it.

00:03:23 Varsha
But it was in different ways because I feel like everyone’s experience is unique. And I was also in a school where I was one of the only few brown girls. So there was this whole idea of how can I actually fit the beauty standard? And one of the issues that I just can’t fix is my skin color.

00:03:40 Varsha
And I never want to. Now at that time I thought, okay, if I’m thinner, at least if I can’t fit into this like Indian Model minority, this idea that I had in my head of like getting really good grades and doing this and doing that, at least I can be pretty. And for me, fitting that idea of what pretty is meant being thinner.

00:03:58 Varsha
So it was just a few years after that of being in high school and just being consumed by calories. I was starting to get panic attacks and exams and it was just awful. And by the time I was in year 12, I was like, okay, something really needs to change. Because getting into a good university was super important to my family.

00:04:17 Varsha
I didn’t want to have any regrets either going Forward in year 12 and saying, oh, I couldn’t do well because of my eating disorder.

00:04:27 Yvie
We know that many individuals experience challenges when accessing care, especially those from non Western backgrounds. I asked Varsha to tell us about her experience seeking professional help and and if she faced any specific challenges in being diagnosed or treated.

00:04:44 Varsha
My family did take me to a GP and I was lucky. But the GP that I went to was also just did not acknowledge that I had an eating disorder either. So I was in year 12 at that point and I was like, I am just struggling so much. So went to my welfare counselor at school and was like, this is what is happening.

00:05:04 Varsha
I just can’t do U12 if this keeps going on. And she said that I needed documentation. So three years after I’d been going to my gp, I finally went back and was like, hi, you’ve seen what’s been happening for the past three years and give me documentation now, like, I don’t know what that means.

00:05:21 Varsha
And he was like, oh, I didn’t want to diagnose you with an eating disorder because I thought it would affect your employability and like being immigrants already, like, there’s that idea of like systemic racism and how that affects us. So having to hear that was just a complete shock for my family as well.

00:05:38 Varsha
And it just wasn’t the nicest thing. And I think that definitely prevented me getting a diagnosis for a while, but finally got it started seeing a psychologist, got diagnosed with anxiety there and I finally got special provisions during school. So during HSC exams I had like a little room to with a few less people and was able to bring in food, had rest breaks, all those things.

00:06:02 Varsha
And I feel like that finally kickstarted recovery because I was like, I’m finally in a place where what I’m going through is acknowledged and I’m not just. My brain isn’t just trying to figure out what’s wrong with me. Like, it’s a mental illness that I’m dealing with and something that, yeah, I hope to like, fully recover from, but it’s also something that I just need to work towards.

00:06:22 Varsha
And I finally had like professional help. So I feel like that’s where recovery started. And since then it’s just been kind of in that like up and down process, but definitely just getting in a better headspace, finding a much better GP who you know, was never like, oh, I don’t want to diagnose you or anything like that, but is just fully able to acknowledge that I’m struggling and that’s okay.

00:06:46 Yvie
What societal and cultural expectations did you encounter growing up and how did you think that they influenced your body image?

00:06:56 Varsha
Yeah, so I think growing up it was definitely a thing of like, mental health isn’t as big of a deal because I think the time that my family grew up in India, mental health wasn’t really talked about. Now it like, culture is changing, but I think when they’ve moved overseas as well, you kind of carry the values that were with you when you left the country.

00:07:16 Varsha
So when I started saying like, oh, I’m really struggling, it was kind of like, well, people back home in India have it way harder. Or like, you should be so grateful that you have food and all of that. And I grew up really, really lucky. Like, I got all the food that I wanted and all of that.

00:07:31 Varsha
So I think I just started feeling a lot of guilt and just kind of hating myself for not being able to figure out why I wasn’t able to enjoy food or have a good relationship, why exercise was like this absolute demon. And the first GP that I went to was also South Asian.

00:07:50 Varsha
And I think representation is really important, but it’s also representation of values, not just race, because this GP would just connect with my family over how mental illness wasn’t really happening and how I wasn’t struggling. So that just didn’t help, because when I first started going, it was going in every month and the results that I was having was getting worse and worse, and all I would hear was, oh, you know, just exercise a bit less and eat more.

00:08:17 Varsha
And it’s like, no, but you’re not understanding. And I think it was also kind of put to the wayside because I was a teenager and it’s like, you’ll outgrow this. Other people in your family were really thin when they were teenagers. And then I’d be like, yeah, no, they were. They’re so right.

00:08:31 Varsha
I’m fine. And then my GP also referred me to a dietitian who was also South Asian. And instead of actually addressing the whole issue of mental health, I remember at one point my family and her were like, talking about whether my year 10 formal dress was modest enough. And I was like, what is happening?

00:08:49 Varsha
Why are you talking about whether I’m showing too much skin or not and not actually, you know, talking about how I’m doing and the whole issue around my relationship with food and exercise? So it was just kind of frustration after frustration. And I definitely think that some people in my family have now come around.

00:09:11 Yvie
Did you find that your community was open at all to discussing body image or eating disorders? And was it something that was ever discussed much, or was it just, like, you say, kind of. It didn’t really exist?

00:09:25 Varsha
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, high school was tricky in that the only, like, cultural community I had around me were who, like, people who look like me was my family. And then most people at school, yeah, they just, like, did not look like me. They were white. And it just. Relatability was really, really difficult because I think it was always this idea of, like, oh, but they can talk about mental health and that’s fine.

00:09:50 Varsha
But, like, people in India go through way worse than they get through it. And it was only after kind of coming out of high school and finding a South Asian community that, you know, was a similar age or, like, similar understanding of what mental health is, hearing about their struggles with mental health, that I was like, oh, my gosh, like, it’s not just me.

00:10:11 Varsha
So many of us are struggling, and especially around eating disorders. I feel like food is just such a big part, part of, like, South Asian culture as well, and like, society in general. That having that relationship with food made it so hard to be part of community. That finding people who finally looked like me and talked about mental health was just groundbreaking.

00:10:32 Varsha
And I was like, oh, my gosh, I feel. I feel accepted, I feel part of this. And I think that also helped me connect with my culture and, like, also with my family, because I finally could understand where they were coming from as well. I think growing up as a teenager, I was just kind of like, oh, well, you don’t get it.

00:10:48 Varsha
But yeah, now I think I’m in a bit of a different headspace.

00:10:51 Yvie
Yeah, you would have felt, seen.

00:10:54 Varsha
Yeah.

00:10:58 Yvie
And what changes would you like to see in society or in your own community that would better support people dealing with these issues?

00:11:07 Varsha
Yeah. I think cultural competency in the healthcare industry is really, really important because it wasn’t just like the South Asian gps or professionals that I went to that didn’t acknowledge my eating disorder. I, like, went to a GP not that long ago and said that my anxiety was getting worse. And I was told, oh, well, people have bigger problems than you.

00:11:27 Varsha
And I was like, I’m not saying that they don’t. I’m not saying my problems are the biggest, but it’s that basic understanding of, first of all, mental health competency would be really, really great. And then also that element of cultural competency, because it took a little bit of shopping around, I guess, to find a GP and a psychologist that actually understand both of those things.

00:11:48 Varsha
And now with my psychologist, when I, like, talk about familial dynamics or the cultural implications, she’s not even of South Asian background, but she’s able to understand it because I think it’s that idea of being able to broaden your mind a little bit and be like, different people, have different experiences. And I feel like education as well, in schools of different demographics, having people from organizations like Butterfly really come in and talk about what an eating disorder is.

00:12:15 Varsha
Because in high school, I remember just doing a worksheet on it and that was kind of the end of it. Even though it’s. Yeah, it’s continually growing in Australia, it’s one of the most, like, severe mental illnesses as well, that given the death rate and everything. So I really think it’s time to look at this illness that has such a high mortality rate and put it into picture and just say, okay.

00:12:39 Varsha
We clearly need to provide more support. I feel like government funding is also key to doing any of this because none of it comes without having the resources and funding for the healthcare industry or schools.

00:12:50 Yvie
My final question for you, Varsha, is what advice would you give someone from your community who is currently dealing with body image issues or an eating disorder?

00:13:01 Varsha
Yeah, I think I personally grew up thinking that there was just something wrong with my brain. There is nothing wrong with you and like it genuinely there are so many other people out there who look just like you who are struggling with the same thing and help really is out there. And I feel like go to the GP on your own, book that appointment.

00:13:20 Varsha
I know it’s not a fun process, but those first steps really do make such a big difference. It took me forever to actually get back into finding professional help after I had such bad experiences. But now the healthcare providers that I have that are still bulk billed somehow have really changed my life and I think changed my trajectory with recovery and healing from an eating disorder as well.

00:13:45 Yvie
Oh, wonderful. That’s great advice. Thank you so much, Varsha. Body image and eating disorders are difficult to navigate for anyone. But cultural stigma can add another another layer of complexity. Our next guest, who wishes to remain anonymous, has graciously agreed to share her story with us.

00:14:06 Guest
So growing up I’ve always had comments about my eating, but I honestly never saw it as an eating disorder. I just thought it was something about my anxiety not eating around people, not wanting to be around people. So it was always like growing up and I was didn’t see as an eating disorder.

00:14:24 Guest
But then I was linked in with the mental health service and I guess the more I spoke about it, she was like, you do realize this is not so much of anxiety but so much of eating and something you need to focus on. And then they made a referral to eating disorder service and that was the.

00:14:41 Yvie
Beginning of the therapy.

00:14:45 Guest
Yeah.

00:14:46 Yvie
And do you think that cultural expectations have played a role in your journey and if so how?

00:14:53 Guest
Culture definitely plays a role, I think in everything realistically. Well, yeah, I believe there’s obviously like stigma about weight and then the pressure to conform to like societal standards and all of that, but then also within like the Muslim society as well end the sort of stone exists, right, because we are constantly reminding that like our parents came from the wartime, there was famine there and they grew up having to eat food that had sand in it because there wasn’t enough portions.

00:15:30 Guest
But there’s no focus on any body shape, sizes or weight except about just food. Itself.

00:15:37 Yvie
Were there elements of your culture that you found helpful or comforting when it came to body image?

00:15:43 Guest
So I come from a Middle Eastern background and I have found that it offers several elements that provide comfort for those struggling with eating disorders and body image issues. So within the Middle Eastern culture has diverse beauty standards and appreciates different body types, features and skin tones, which subconsciously creates a more inclusive view of attractiveness within our community.

00:16:09 Guest
They also tend to be more of a focus on inequalities rather than external to then cultural narratives often emphasize features like kindness, hospitality, strength over physical appearance and which obviously shifts away then the focus from body image.

00:16:26 Yvie
Eating disorders and body dissatisfaction are often viewed differently depending on the community. I asked our guest to tell us how body image and eating disorders are talked about in her cultural community.

00:16:41 Guest
The level of awareness within our community, especially the older generation for eating disorders and just mental health in general, is very low. It’s not something talked about openly or often within like the older generations, but a shift is slightly happening in the younger generation. Like the younger, the youth are starting to slowly talk about multi inactivities and that’s I guess bringing a slight awareness to it as well.

00:17:14 Yvie
Yeah, exactly. It’s always the youth, isn’t it, that start to change everything.

00:17:18 Guest
Yeah.

00:17:20 Yvie
Getting a diagnosis can be challenging, particularly when you don’t fit the stereotypical image of someone with an eating disorder. I asked our guest to share what her experience was like when she sought help.

00:17:34 Guest
So I was able to find friends, particularly those working in the health and medical field. Unfortunately, opening to family wasn’t something I felt comfortable with and something I chose not to do for my personal reason. My friends have adapted to my eating habits, always caring to my needs without making me feel uncomfortable.

00:17:56 Guest
And I do continue to seek support from relevant services and various different professionals, including like a doctor, psychologist, dietitian, psychiatrist. And I do give lots of credit to my best friend who’s by me through all of it, always been there for me and has supported me regardless of what’s happening with her life too.

00:18:22 Yvie
Oh, that’s lovely. Friends are incredible. Incredibly important. So many facets in life, especially this. Lastly, what advice would you give to someone from a similar background to yours who might be struggling with their body image or disordered eating?

00:18:38 Guest
I think the typical advice would probably be you are not alone and there’s plenty of help out there. And although the older generation might be in denial, they are starting to become more aware of these issues. So I guess it’s just finding the right person to speak to and Going from there.

00:18:57 Yvie
That’s great advice because it is out there, isn’t it?

00:19:00 Guest
Yeah, there’s heaps of support services out there with a telehealth exists online chats, resources online. Yeah. Video calls, phone calls in person. There’s services everywhere now.

00:19:13 Yvie
Yeah, that’s. It’s made a huge difference and thankfully it has. We’re now joined by Anila Azar, a psychologist who is passionate about appropriate care within culturally and linguistically diverse communities. Tell us a bit about your background and your experience slash interest, treating individuals from multicultural backgrounds.

00:19:39 Anila
I just, it was sort of something that was just immediately interesting to me when I was starting studying. So I do remember sourcing information far and wide and at that point it was sort of far and wide for eating disorders that exist in sort of the culturally diverse communities. So I think I did my, my literature review actually on, on this exact topic and it just, it captured my interest because it’s so complex, it’s so underground I think particularly in the diverse communities and you know, there’s just such tremendous complexity to it that as a clinician it really just pushes you I think into trying to understand it and working with the disorder.

00:20:25 Anila
So I sort of moved from there into private practice where I specialized in IT and then worked in. This was back in Melbourne where I first started my specialization in eating disorders. Moved across to eating disorders Victoria in Sydney, also working in psychiatric hospitals in the inpatient units for the treatment of eating disorders.

00:20:47 Anila
And then a shortish stint at the Butterfly foundation too, running their youth programs and also at Birch Tree we’re working in specialization of eating disorders too.

00:20:58 Yvie
And now you have your own practice.

00:21:01 Anila
My own beautiful little practice where part of the vision that I have for this place is to really open up this space to those that are struggling in diverse communities and particularly with an eating disorder and amongst. And of course amongst other mental health issues which you know, as we’ve all been discussing today that this is yes, applicable to the, to the eat, to an eating disorder in particular.

00:21:28 Anila
But this is also just, you know, across the board in terms of the landscape of mental health issues. I think we can sort of apply all of these challenges and barriers and issues across the board.

00:21:42 Yvie
Across the world, mental health is a vital part of our well being. Yet in many multicultural communities, discussing mental health often comes with a heavy stigma. Cultural expectations of strength, resilience and privacy can make it difficult for people to open up about their struggles. But mental health challenges don’t discriminate. No matter your background, everyone deserves support and understanding.

00:22:09 Yvie
I asked Anila, how does stigma around mental health, particularly in non western cultures, influence the way individuals seek help for body image or eating disorders?

00:22:21 Anila
There’s so many challenges that come to mind but the ones that immediately stand out, you know, are issues such as the stigma and shame. Unfortunately there aren’t a lot of examples or explicit examples in the community, in the communities that people can draw strength from or discuss care options. And as I’d mentioned earlier, it’s still very underground, so that’s a real challenge.

00:22:46 Anila
I think also the multicultural communities may also have unique historical experiences that influence their relationship with food, body image and health. So trauma can play a significant role in the development of an eating disorder which requires that really sensitive and informed approaches to treatment. But then again there’s not to mention the other aspects such as communication barriers, access to care, cultural competence and the varied coping mechanisms and other little really subtle things like there’s also just diverse cultural dietary practices that may influence eating behaviours and attitudes towards foods.

00:23:28 Anila
So professionals, dietitians, psychologists, GPs, they have to understand these practices to avoid misinterpretation of symptoms of behaviours that are culturally normative.

00:23:38 Yvie
How do you ensure that your approach is culturally sensitive and relevant to the patient’s background?

00:23:44 Anila
I think a big one here, and particularly due to the stigma and shame, is really working on building rapport and trust. You know, as we’ve been discussing it’s. It’s often particularly difficult for clients to open up about their experiences. Being vulnerable about such sensitive issues is not openly encouraged in many cultures. So you know, I think in saying that I’m also continually educating myself about different cultures, traditions and belief systems.

00:24:15 Anila
Understanding the historical and social contexts that shape my clients experiences can provide valuable insights. Something the medical world and the dietetic world can do is can be quite dismissive of an eating disorder. And really to counter this I engage in lots of self reflection. I think to just recognize my own biases, assumptions and cultural influences.

00:24:41 Anila
You know, just acknowledging how these may affect my perceptions and interactions with patients from diverse backgrounds. And I just, you know, I’d really invite clinicians, therapists, GPs, dietitians to also do the same, particularly with working with the culturally diverse communities. I think it’s also important to recognise that communication styles can vary across cultures.

00:25:01 Yvie
Well, that’s another question. You touched on that just briefly. But language barriers can sometimes complicate the care process. So how do you manage these, these particular challenges and are there specific tools or strategies that do help?

00:25:16 Anila
Yeah, so I think that in this instance, as a general rule of thumb, if the therapy with myself is not going to be as effective as it could be with someone more versed in the client’s language of origin, I always encourage the client to work with therapists who can communicate directly with patients in their preferred language.

00:25:34 Anila
So that’s just a, you know, first rule of thumb. When language support isn’t easily available, I think it’s important to use clear and simple language, avoiding the jargon and complex terms, checking for understanding. Understanding, sorry, regularly, to ensure the client understands what’s being discussed. You know, relying on visual aids, diagrams, charts, pictures.

00:25:57 Anila
This can be particularly helpful for clients who may struggle with verbal communication. But again, this is also, you know, standard across the board, regardless of culture. And, you know, and I think generally speaking, really creating a safe space for clients to ask questions is important, encouraging them to express any confusion or concerns and really being patient in addressing these.

00:26:20 Anila
This is where feedback loops can be incredibly useful and just also, you know, useful in the sense to help the clinician adapt, you know, your approach in real time, which is, which is something I think I access pretty regularly during my sessions.

00:26:40 Yvie
When it comes to the journey of healing from an eating disorder, the role of family can be both a powerful source of support and a challenging dynamic to navigate. In many cases, family members are a crucial part of the recovery process. But what happens when you don’t fully understand or even accept the reality of eating disorders?

00:27:02 Yvie
How do you approach treatment in a way that respects cultural values, yet prioritises the individual’s health? To explore this deeper, we ask, how important is the role of family in treatment? And how do you navigate family involvement, especially when they may not fully understand or accept the concept of eating disorders?

00:27:23 Anila
This is a really tricky one. It’s very, very tricky for all of the reasons that we’ve been discussing around family dynamics. The stigma, the shame, the denial. Look, I think if the client is amenable, and again, this is across the board, the role of family and treatment disorders can be incredibly helpful, particularly in the culturally diverse communities where family dynamics can significantly influence a patient’s recovery process.

00:27:56 Anila
Involving family members can provide that support, improve communication, address any underlying issues that may contribute to the disorder. However, that again, is incredibly challenging. But I think the first, the biggest one is always around education and awareness. If a family involvement is necessary and accepted. Providing educational eating disorders, including nature of symptoms, impact on individuals, can just sort of help the family members understand what their loved one is experiencing.

00:28:31 Anila
But I also think that particularly in the diverse communities, the big one here is acknowledging family challenges, recognising that family dynamics can be complex and that members of their own emotional responses to the eating disorder. But what is always helpful is focusing on the strengths of the family dynamics, emphasising the positive aspects of the family system and how they can be leveraged.

00:28:55 Anila
You know, other things might just also include challenging myths, discussing the resistance and just generally encouraging really supportive behaviours.

00:29:04 Yvie
Finally, what advice would you give to mental health professionals who want to improve their cultural competence when dealing with eating disorders?

00:29:15 Anila
I think it’s really important here to just continuously engage in learning, seeking out resources, books, articles, workshops, online courses that focus specifically on cultural competence in mental health. Staying informed about the diverse cultural backgrounds of your own client is super important. I think this is where these open ended questions are really useful in the therapeutic space.

00:29:43 Anila
But also keeping up with current trends and research related to eating disorders and cultural issues. Understanding how different cultures view body image, food and health and can also provide those valuable insights and to help eliminate some of the biases and assumptions that a clinician might have. Something I rely particularly heavily on is supervision with peers and supervisors just who have that expertise in cultural competence.

00:30:13 Anila
I think the, the other, I just wanted to mention this other, the other one that I think is particularly underutilized and it might be a little bit controversial, but I think therapists would really benefit from adopting a cultural humility. So just listening, actively opening, asking those open ended questions, listening to the narratives, narratives and you know, admitting limitations around this, acknowledging that you may not have all of the answers and that you probably don’t and that understanding in other cultures, it’s an ongoing process.

00:30:52 Anila
I’d really invite clinicians to be open to learning from your patients, which even with my South Asian clients, having, having a shared sort of, you know, family of origin kind of story, I’m, I’m still learning. Every family is unique, every setup is different. I might understand the nuances, but I may not necessarily fully grasp the entire story.

00:31:17 Anila
But I, as a general rule of thumb, always come from that kind of humility space. I think I love that that’s, that’s.

00:31:25 Yvie
Such good advice for all health clinicians really. I mean you can go to any particular part of medicine and I think when a health professional does admit to you, you know, I’m learning more from you, it gives us a sense of, you know, I guess, respect as, as the patient.

00:31:49 Guest
Yeah.

00:31:50 Anila
Just sort of, you know, that, removing that kind of, you know, that really kind of strict old school kind of, you know, client clinician relationship.

00:32:02 Guest
Yeah.

00:32:02 Anila
Where it’s really all.

00:32:04 Yvie
Yeah.

00:32:04 Anila
You can’t do that in the culturally diverse space. It just doesn’t work.

00:32:10 Yvie
Thank you so much to our brave guests today for sharing their personal experiences and reminding us that eating disorders do not discriminate, and to Anila for sharing her insights when it comes to treating people from multicultural backgrounds. If you’re concerned about an eating disorder for yourself or someone you care about, please reach out to the Butterfly National Helpline at 1-833-4673.

00:32:37 Yvie
That’s 1-800-ed- Hope for a free confidential conversation with one of our specialist counsellors. Alternatively, you can chat online by visiting butterfly.org and following the prompts at the top of the page. You can also download your own support script to take to your GP or other healthcare professional personalised with your needs and requirements for a better experience.

00:33:06 Yvie
To find out more about today’s episode, check out the helpful links in the Show Notes and on the Butterfly website. Just head to butterfly.org au podcast and click through to this episode. You can also find a tip sheet in multiple languages under Butterfly’s Resource tab and look out for information and more resources in Arabic at the end of November 2024.

00:33:30 Yvie
Let’s Talk is produced for the Butterfly foundation by Evie Jones and Annette Staliano for Classic Me Productions with the support of the Waratah Education Foundation. Our Executive producer is Camilla Becket with support from Melissa Wilton and Kate Mulray.